Video Transcript:
(00:04) nor have I seen any evidence to suggest that they are currently so-called traitors in [Music] Parliament are there current or or past parliamentarians senators or or MPS is there clear evidence of them collaborating with foreign countries yes the number is not 11 the number is over [Music] 50 Justice hog released her controversial report on foreign interference on January 28th and the controversy didn’t end there as former senior CIS Intelligence Officers harsh criticism of the report went missing from the cbc’s website although we did
(01:07) end up eventually seeing the footage and releasing a video on it we still felt that there was a lot left un said so we decided to do some serious digging and ended up securing an interview with that same man he is a former investigator for the RCMP former Chief of the asia-pacific region for CIS has a PHD has been CEO of a Corporation specializing in threat risk assessment and Counter Intelligence analysis and most recently has served as professor of criminology at the University of Ottawa and University the sherbrook northern
(01:43) perspective is proud to present Michelle jino Katsuya let’s take a look we saw your reaction to the hog report on uh on your brief interview with Ry Paul on CBC um we found that it was interesting that that interview wasn’t really available on the live stream of CBC for uh well for the entire day and um we only saw it posted to CBC I think it was about 3 days later that uh that your interview was actually posted so um we w we wanted to get you on the show because you seem to have one of the few I will say raw takes on what
(02:30) what the Hogue report actually showed we’ve done our analysis but um what what is your what’s your overall impression of of the public inquiry the you know the witnesses that that testified in the conclusions that that Justice hog drew in her report that’s a great great question and uh would take quite a while to maybe answer it I’ll try to be brief uh uh basically I got what I expected if you return at the uh beginning after the announcement by the government that the inquiry would take place um I was asked
(03:08) to predict what would happen and I got exactly what I predicted which was a sweet and sour sweet in the sense that they admitted that there is foreign interference but the we knew that for the last 30 years uh and over 300 Witnesses went in for in front of uh five different Parliament committee to say so so didn’t really need that uh sour in a sense because um we’ve discovered much much more which also is was important and some very very controversial information came out of the inquiry uh I don’t think the government was expecting that but the
(03:51) sour part is that um the the judge was not uh uh harsh as she could have it was clear from the beginning that the government wanted to uh be very very limited in the in the Mandate they they had to look at the election of 2019 2020 and they also set the tone by saying and we have to look at how cisus can be better at communicating with us with with the government while wait a minute during the interview the D director Vigo former director Vigo of cisus when not once but twice and he said listen I met directly with the
(04:35) Prime Minister I has several times to meet with the Prime Minister and I was also several times prevented to meet with him and when finally I met with him twice I was asked to modify the report that cisus has written so it’s not because of there was a problem of communication it’s because you know if somebody doesn’t want to ear there’s no more uh no more difficulties than having somebody who doesn’t want to lessen the message or want you to change the narrative because the narrative doesn’t please you um during the inquiry
(05:12) several information that came out should have generated also investigation from the RCMP from example we had uh uh High uh officials of the liberal party and the conservative that but Liberal Party in particular that confess in and and and and and testified that they informed hang dong that he was under investigation and he should be careful well wait a minute this is a breach of trust this is a breach of uh security uh in any other circumstances this is jail time how come the investigation the RCMP is not investigating that
(05:54) um both parties have confessed that the rules are fairly flexible in order to be capable to basically pick the candidate they want when there is a uh uh when they have to decide who will be running in certain circum in certain writings um and right there there is a problem when we talk about protecting our democracy everybody is resisting uh having standard rules and and regulations that could be investigated by election Canada or other form of authorities when you have like two buses of student foreign student going to vote for one guy and
(06:38) you don’t see that as loading the dice and foreign interference a lot of lot of very very outrageous information came out and and it doesn’t transpire that much uh the judge sort of uh uh mellow down to a certain extent because how do you want to defend the UND defendable and to a certain extent unfortunately there was criticism about Judge the selection of Judge hog because well for 1997 to 2013 she was working at enan blei uh Law Firm that went in disgrace that was also the law firm of pierot trudo jeanan and
(07:21) other heavy Cannon of the liberal so she was a personal Friends of the trudos family so it was to be expected that the report will be kind of gentle and that’s what to me this report is uh it doesn’t reflect enough um the seriousness of the crisis that we are currently going going the notion of National Security is not well understood in this country the culture of National Security is absolutely absent and we need to sort of work on that element uh definitely another challenge also for the judge was that she has absolutely zipped nothing
(08:04) no knowledge at all of what intelligence world is about and right from the get-go when you read the report she interchanged the word information and intelligence uh at various places yeah they’re totally yeah but it’s two different things you know we collect information we produce intelligence and intelligence is produced by information plus analysis then we have in uh intelligence so intelligence is the end of a very professional uh process so when the government and and the staff around the PM came and said well you know the
(08:48) intelligence is not like evidence with the police we have to take that with a grin of salt we’re never really sure what we’re doing no no no no no no intelligence is based on fact intelligence is based on what we have collected uh sometimes in my in in the classes that I teach at University I say to my student a ton is a ton a ton of brick it doesn’t take as much brick to make a ton as it will take as feather I need much more feather and intelligence collect feather but at the end a ton is a ton and this is exactly what was uh uh
(09:25) denigrated which was sort of play downplay with uh with uh uh the quality of the intelligence that was presented and somewhere somehow it’s a disservice to to this country to undermine The credibility of the institution that is supposed to protect us uh cisus is the it’s doing that full-time by the way guys you know it’s it’s not doing that part-time so and it’s not an academic piece of work it’s it’s done very very differently um other very very outrageous element that should be investigation for example Bill
(10:05) Blair which was the minister of of uh Public Safety took 54 days he’s a former Chief of Police took 54 days before you approve a a warrant that cus ask against Michael Chang Michael Chang who’s a heavy shooter for uh the Liberals in Toronto area and I’ve been known to collaborate with with with uh the Chinese government for for decades and and at the end he he he waited so long that cisus lost the window of opportunity to be capable to conduct their their their uh uh their warrant so a lot of of the judge refer to it as uh um lack
(10:52) of of of good decision or uh refer to it as a uh um dragging their feet a little bit to make decisions no no they were criminal actions period they were criminal actions and that to me is is something that uh they push onto the rugs as I expected uh and now look at the timing now look at the timing the timing couldn’t be worse to a certain extent from a Canadian perspective uh because where the the the the the house of common is not sitting in so we’re going to have to wait until March when March arrived they will
(11:32) probably quickly uh call for election so now we’re going to go into election it’s going to take another time another few several months before we get a new government and when the government is in we’ll take another uh uh another time another several months before anything is done about running what what the or changing what is is needed in the law and uh in the operational activities in order to sort of secure our our country so at the end of the day by the time the whistle lower sort of uh took the documents to
(12:05) the to the Press which was uh August 20 uh 2022 and fall 2022 to the time we finally get something going which will be 2026 gosh man almost four years I’ve gone to I’ve gone by our allies are looking at us and say whoa whoa whoa whoa out of the five eyes you guys are the crocodile you’re you’re not sort of doing your part you’re not doing Ser something seriously but this is from an investigator point of view only making a demonstration to me that the uh agent of influence within the government have succeeded in
(12:44) manipulating the system and this has been going on since Mr Malone until now every single government and independently of the color red or blue have been corrupted have been compromised uh several sever ministers have uh collaborated uh uh willingly uh intentionally with uh foreign entities who’s putting Canada first who’s putting Canada first when I’m listening to what is going on strangely enough the only people who have been asking the right question is lequa they’re the only people asking the right questions but they know they’ll
(13:23) never take the power so they are concerned about the institutions they are concerned about all right for the province of Quebec that’s their right uh but they also concerned about the the the Canadians so so far they’re the only one to my point of view are asking the right questions and uh uh it’s I’m very disappointed to see uh the the behavior of our political leaders both uh red and blue I think what is most jarring for Canadians hearing the hearing the results of the report are 7 months ago we had the zenic cop report come out and
(13:57) you had people saying there’s 11 parliamentarians past or present that have wittingly or semi- wittingly let’s just translate that they’ve knowingly Co collaborated with foreign States against the interest of of Canada and Canadians and Hog’s report she comes out and says there’s no traitors in Parliament and the the former chair of the enop committee says oh yeah that’s what our report basically said which it it didn’t um and then we looked at the report yet there’s clear examples even in the report that talk about people
(14:33) trying to or MPS trying to influence their colleagues feeding intelligence back to at least India um you have the Hond dong situation so let’s let’s just ask the question are there current or or past parliamentarians senators or MPS is there clear evidence of them collaborating with with foreign countries yes and the the number is not 11 the number is over 50 uh we have the name we have the evidence we know when it happened we know how it happened uh and and it could it could have led to investigation in the past and everything
(15:17) but one of the challenges that we have in Canada uh in all fairness is that unfortunately uh just like our allies before we didn’t H we don’t have a clear definition of what foreign interference is about Bill C70 was exact is exactly about that modifying the criminal code the law of uh uh Information Security Act in order to be capable to Define exactly what foreign interference is about so the law enforcement mainly the RCMP are capable to investigate and eventually maybe prosecute uh but we’re not at this point capable to do so so
(15:56) there’s a lot of uh uh elements where we could go for example breach of uh of trust breach of their uh uh security clearance or something like this but it’s it’s a little bit more difficult uh we’re far from um we’re we’re far from home when even when we will change the law and will be capable to Define what foreign interference is about we we it’s still going to be quite difficult and to this extent I will paraphrase what uh The Honorable honorable uh John Major Judge John Major said when he was uh giving his press conference uh
(16:35) following the Air India inquiry that he led uh in the justice system in Canada when um it comes to to to treat National Security issues we are still very juvenile we’re still lacking experience and we still need to find prosecutors with the backbone to be capable to go ahead and we need to have judge to understand what national security is about look for example Madam hug she didn’t know the difference between information and intelligence to a certain extent because she interchanged the word constantly in her report and
(17:14) that’s that’s a a big mistake so so if anything at all we should try to do like France has done France has suffered a lot of terrorist activities for uh many decades and what they eventually did they created a group of prosecutor and a group of Judge that they specially train about National Security about intelligence how to treat intelligence how to understand how intelligence is produced and everything so they they don’t mistake the difference between common crimes and National Security crimes or terrorism or
(17:52) whatever uh Espionage it’s it’s way way different and just to give you another example the disparity that exist take the case of Jeffrey Dil Jeffrey Dil was a leftenant Navy in alifax who for three years gave secrets to the gru the Russian military intelligence uh he was arrested eventually confess eventually collaborated with the authority still got 20 years for what he has done uh uh Cameron ortis DG with uh the RCMP director General with R CMP responsible for for strategic intelligence uh gave intelligence to terrorists gave
(18:36) intelligence to organize crime refused to collaborate went through his entire trial and received 15 years he put at risk law enforcement officers were acting as double agent and an undercover agent and still got only 15 years why why one guy cooperate the other guy doesn’t cooperate why the difference here the justice system in Canada still uh uh very juvenile to uh say like uh uh judge major uh when it comes to treat National Security uh and we lack that culture in Canada we don’t really understand because for decades every government we
(19:21) had in the past refuse to talk about National Security so speak no evil see no evil understand no evil and that’s EX exactly what uh uh we are currently uh facing as a challenge as a nation so 50 is a terrifying number I think for for most Canadians um but from from what you’re saying fast and current yeah and and and from what you’re saying um and this is where I think Canadians will misinterpret things they will equate foreign interference to treason but that is a false equivalency in our legal system isn’t
(20:02) it the line is thin the line is thin between the two uh uh if you go strictly according to the criminal code as we speak uh the bar is quite High to uh uh to the threshold is quite High to call somebody a a Trader but the end result is exactly the same thing uh uh to a certain extent when uh uh you give information or you fail a country uh that is not this country uh in this decision process or anything like this somewhere somehow it’s problematic it’s very very problematic it it uh you know we we talk about transnational repression that is the
(20:46) kind of repression that is done by authoritarian countries uh in certain ethnic community that we have right here who should receive and and and get our protection has the Reserve um but they succeed in doing this we had the assassination by the Indian government of a uh seek leader uh we have uh uh the destruction of reputations and and and names of people who would try to run for uh um a party or in certain Community but we have also literally black males going on for people who are forced to either say nothing be quiet or do
(21:28) certain things in order to protect their their their family and their loved ones back uh in the country of their the country of their origin if they still have family over there that is one form of foreign interference foreign interference basically there’s five forms or five sectors of foreign interference there’s the political one that we discuss quite extensively uh there’s the academic one where uh they mainly go to uh steal intellectual property uh there’s the military one there’s the industrial one and the last one that I
(22:02) was mentioned about just a moment ago the the in the the repression within the community so so foreign interference is is is a weird animal because depending of which one you’re talking about it’s closer to espionage it’s closer to Blackmail it depends what it is it’s bullying but it’s all done with proxies right here it’s all done with people who collaborate uh and they’re not all the time from the ethnic group of the country that they are helping some people are are simply what Stalin used to call the useful idiots uh the people
(22:42) who willingly will sort of help maybe because they’re in love with the culture they’re in love with uh their food I don’t know but they they they they want to sort of uh help and they’re well treated and uh skill intelligence officer will see that will understand that and will manipulate the people to their advantage uh sometimes without even their their their their realization that they are been they have been manipulated but what this report that the insect report was about we’re talking about people who willingly
(23:17) intentionally and purposely have collaborated with foreign countries that’s another ball game now we’re talking we’re close to treason we’re close to people who uh have uh definitely caused arm to either Canadians or this country and that’s is something that is uh that should be taken seriously and also that needs to be mentioned that it’s every all three uh government level Municipal provincial and federal it’s not only Federal Municipal as well and what we have been witness also through the years is people will move from one level to
(23:59) another people will start in a major uh City then move to provincial then move to federal or start with Federal then come back and become mayor of a city or something like this so so we’ve got to sort of be H careful because the the Chinese has understood if I talk about the Chinese because I was a chief of Asia Pacific well you know chief of Asia Pacific I was covering covering India and China so I I can talk about both um but you know when the expression they wrote the book well the Chinese really wrote the book
(24:34) 2,000 years ago The Art of War sunu wrote the book and it explained very very well how influence is much better than control the man’s let less energy uh it’s easier to achieve and greater success with influence because somewhere somehow you’ve got your opponent who willing will decide to do something that Advantage you it’s it’s it’s great it’s phenomenal so when uh uh um judge hug says that in 2019 2021 there was some foreign interference and a certain writing probably some people succeeded in getting their candidate uh
(25:18) to come in it did not sort of upset the overall election uh and I agree I totally agree but the thing is is that you don’t need an army you don’t need 50% or 20% you just need one or two or five people that will be close to the the decision process close to the decider close to the people who make decisions influence them in going in certain direction and that’s sufficient that’s sufficient you know it’s just like it’s like having to tip something you just need to push with one finger not my entire buddy just one
(25:59) finger and suddenly you tip the balance and you put your finger on the balance to go h a certain way that’s what foreign interference is about well and to your point um you know she said well you know maybe maybe it allowed a candidate here or there to to be appointed in the writing and it’s almost like she’s saying so what and and we’re sitting back saying what do you mean so what so what is that you have to do something and and so what can can also be taken to this degree recently uh if you’ve been following the
(26:34) liberal leadership race there was a gentleman named Chandra Arya who was looking to potentially become the leader of the country nobody thought he had a chance because he didn’t speak French and wasn’t interested in speak for him it wasn’t important right um but um there was an active campaign online to vote for him because he was the worst candidate so we asked the question we’re not saying he is but what happens if a candidate like that is under the uh the influence of a foreign nation and he does get appointed to be
(27:10) prime minister that’s a disaster for this country absolutely particularly when we know currently the drama that is going on between India and Canada uh between a country where the Prime Minister have seriously taken the country in India into a nationalist religious uh uh nationalist uh uh zalot uh and and and Canada has been uh uh receiving all form of disinformation and propaganda and and uh uh defamation coming from that country it’s amazing it’s amazing um no you’re you’re absolutely right you’re absolutely right
(27:52) this is this is problematic but somewhere you know uh I I’m glad it took place to a certain extent because this guy just burned himself this guy just burned himself he just revealed his cards so he cannot sort of play poker with us anymore because we know exactly what it is who it is and and and I like it I like it and and and if anything at all uh one of the positive effect definitely that took place um with the hog commission despite the fact that it drag its Feet Again blah blah blah at least we’ve been talking for quite a
(28:30) long time now and it raised the awareness within the population uh podcasts like yours uh have been asking the right questions have been uh uh engaged into the conversation engag into the discussions and this has been lacking in this country for a long period of time and that’s the reason why at the end in in in uh uh the summer or the fall of 2022 somebody in the intelligence uh Community said it I’m going to give documents to the media because that’s it that’s all we’ve been seeing it since Mr Marrone we’ve been warning every prime
(29:10) minister we’ve been telling them one after the other they either used the information to their advantage personal or political or did nothing intentionally so so nobody has sort of put the safety of Canada this the security of Canada ahead of their personal interest so it it needs to change and and I think it’s one of the historical moment for Canada that uh has been one of the great one painful because now we are revealing certain things that only a few uh intimate uh people into the security World knew about but it came out because you see
(29:54) the existence of National Security necess will necessitate to have uh um a security intelligence organization but a security intelligence organization in a Democratic Society it’s kind of a necessary evil it’s necessary because as we saw in the previous years with terrorism and stuff like that there are some really crazy dude out there ready to do awful things in order to promote their ideas promote their ideology and we have to stop that but at the same time it’s an EV because uh our constitutions our right try to protect
(30:32) our privacy our right of freedom of speech freedom of Association freedom of religions uh uh sexual Orient blah blah blah and here you have an organization that can put uh uh a camera in your bedrooms a listening device in your uh in your toilets uh in your bathroom uh we can open your mail we can follow you in the name of protecting the the nation so how do we sort of find this balance between having this necessary evil and having to combat some people that are ready to do bad things uh and and and we need to strive in that perspective and
(31:14) transparency accountability is where we need to strike that’s where we need to go uh and and and we do that in a Democratic Society by talking about it and finding way ways to make people accountable because in the name of secrecy a lot of bad things can be done and let’s put it this way you know the government is the one who identified the threat investigate the threat uh prosecute the the threat and eventually punish the threat so dice are loaded somebody will sort of decide if okay today I’m going after blue eyes and blonde hair and that’s it
(31:54) that’s all we’re going because that’s what the government have excited you know uh and we’re not asking question uh no we need to ask question this is what democracy is about uh we’re watching down south with this orange clown now that is sort of turning this country into a fascist State uh it needs to stop it needs to be capable to stop and currently he rollers is Roller steaming everything that this country has TR thought they had put have save saard to prevent that kind of abuses but abuses are are are are ongoing we’re far from
(32:35) that situation right here but at the same time we’ve got some element within our societies that are willing to use violence extremism for me is extremism red uh red left check it deck I don’t care I’m going to investigate and neutralize that because that’s not my what my values are that’s my country that’s not what my Society is about and and we need to be aable to to to stop that but we need to stop that with finding again also the kind of discourses with our political leaders that brings back the decorum that we
(33:17) used to have and the respect that we used to have for elected officials you know um I have a lot of respect to people who will sacrifice for four or five years or more of their life uh for their family life their private life Etc in order to serve this country so personal attacks or or people who gives uh half truth half lies uh uh as as as they come along um well monkey see monkey do people watch those uh political leaders acting the way they do and now suddenly we’re having uh people throwing rocks at our prime minister or
(33:57) uh uh aggressing bullying uh our ministers when they are visiting their writings the uh sergeant of arms at the House of Commons said that since 2018 the threat against elected officials as increased by 800% 800% the RCMP has uh since last year more than 60% increase of uh uh threat against uh elected officials again they have difficulties to give enough security to all the people that are requesting it uh in in in in all provinces uh people at the municipal level are quitting before the end of their term because of the
(34:45) threat and the language that have been used against them against their family then the fear they have for the safety of their family and everything what’s going on what’s going on this is unacceptable untolerable unfortunately with the social media there’s a polarization that is taking place and people now are finding themselves into Echo chamber and these Echo chamber well guess what they’re fed also by Foreign entities foreign services that are sort of feeding them in order to create division our in our society and that
(35:21) division serve their purpose when we are distracted by conflict within we don’t pay attention to the conflict outside of our countries and and that’s exactly what is currently with with Russia with China with Iran with Saudi Arabia with India I could go on like this yeah we see it all the time on YouTube just the the misinformation disinformation the lies that are spread and you can see it coming from the different countries it’s insane well and and we’ve been trying to warn our audience especially as we approach an election that um uh
(35:58) especially you know Russia I know that’s one of their MOS is disinformation uh uh and China to a certain degree but they they I know they uh they also have their hands in other baskets as well but we’ve been trying to warn our audience that you’re going to start seeing some crazy things um and unfortunately there’s going to be people on YouTube and and other social media platforms that won’t care about the accuracy of these things they will pick them up they will they will they will regurgitate them and then that’s when
(36:33) people start trusting that to be true and that’s when the I’ll say the uh the intelligence operatives of these nefarious foreign nations are sitting back and they’re giving themselves a round of applause because they’re seeing their message uh move and and it can have a damaging effect and I think we’ve even said that if I’m if I’m Russia or China I’m looking back looking at the state of Canada and saying mission accomplished absolutely you’re absolutely right um you know there’s a new form of warfare that is taking place uh NATO used to
(37:09) have five uh designated Warfare uh land sea air cyber and space there’s a new form now called uh uh cognitive Warfare it’s very very serious we’re studying it we’re looking at it and it’s basically cognitive Warfare is is is the way to alter your critical sense of thinking uh if I can feed you with the wrong information with the disinformation or or or fake news enough you’re losing your be your bearing you’re losing your your your your your your capability to analyze uh correctly and at the end of the day we’ll be capable to overthrow a
(37:56) democratic state uh without firing a single bullet simply by creating a sturb and and trouble within that society and being capable to have the people we want far a very likely far right to be capable to sort of race uh at the top and and to control and people would say okay now we need order so we’ll take a very strong leader and that strong leader happen to be on the fascist side you know so uh we’re we’re we’re having a phenomenal challenge with artificial intelligence being added to this well and me coming from my IT
(38:35) background um we we know this more than most and what we what we the prevailing theory in in it especially it security is that if if somebody is coming at you with AI there is only one defense and that defense is if you have a counter a ey to that because um you can’t react fast enough you can’t react sophisticated enough um especially with deep fake the human eye is not going to be able to determine you know what is what is a deep fake and what is not within a matter of months if not even a few years away it’s so close now and you’re you’re
(39:18) only going to be able to determine if something is deep fixed soon by artificial intelligence looking at it and analyzing it it just takes much it takes 15 minutes to to to create or for artificial intelligence even less uh to create a fake news and and and months if not more to uh to debunk it so it’s it’s a great great great problem we’re currently facing so the only defense is for H uh the citizens to arm themselves with awareness uh uh to speak to to each other to sort of pay attention to what’s going on
(39:57) to ask our elected officials to be accountable a little bit more to have the Safeguard mechanism uh in place in order to be capable to sort of uh warn people warn people see and and to come back to the uh hug report that’s one the that’s one of the thing that was said the group of uh uh uh senior public servant That was supposed to watch for foreign interference in 2019 2021 came and testified and said said yeah yeah yeah we noticed that there was some taking place but we uh uh talked with one another and we decided that uh
(40:36) it wasn’t meeting the threshold so the next question was what is the threshold Qui Qui silence they couldn’t say because they didn’t have a threshold what the hell man you’re supposed to be professional of what you do and you don’t you say didn’t meet the threshold but you don’t have really a threshold this is the kind of amateurism that we’re having it’s and that that armed us and and and we need to be capable now to be serious at it and this is why I was talking about the culture of National Security but then I will bring another
(41:12) angle to all this if you want to talk about National Security the provinces needs to be involved as well and one of the problem is is that the problems are constantly in the thug of war with the federals on all sort of things just because they are the province and they think that they need to be in this disagreement wait a minute guys in June 2023 Trudeau did a lot of bad things but he did some good things as well and Mr Trudeau offered to the pre to all the premier to uh uh receive a special SEC security briefing from cisus all the
(41:51) premier were invited only the premier of BC accepted all the guy all the other guys decline now just a fact every year in Canada combined Federal and provinces we invest an average of $15 billion do it’s a b $15 billion doll in R&D so the provinces are in average putting each of the uh each of them close to a billion dollar in R&D it goes mainly to our academic world and uh uh fundamental research and stuff like that now the concept of investing into R&B is that you’re going to get a return on investment one day so you need to be
(42:36) capable to produce something which eventually you will be capable to commercialize and that’s how the Wheel Works uh you know and you greas the will but if the province refus to get their briefing and to know what’s going on we got a serious problem because you’re not protecting your own investment so guys wake up and smell the coffee because where do you think the int intellectual property are disappearing current estimation by expert are that Canada is losing an average of 100 to 120 billion dollar per year of R&D or uh
(43:17) uh contract or business opportunities Etc even if you cut that by half 50 billion can we afford to lose that you know and that is because the right hand doesn’t speak with the left hand so now we need the province to be on board as well so if we talk about National Security I strongly recommend that every Premier has a national security advisor that person will have the security clearance that person will make the trip to Ottawa will get their briefing on regular B every month if necessary because National Security not is not
(43:54) only about in uh uh foreign interference it’s not only about Espionage it’s also about terrorism it’s also about also right-wing extremist or left-wing extremist any form of extremism because guess what you know the the the dude who uh decided to run with his uh car on uh the street in Toronto and killed 11 people he wasn’t left or right he hated women this is the other form of extremism that we’re starting to see and and to ideological extremism exactly so in that perspective we need to be capable to be informed and to protect
(44:30) our society if we know what’s going on but currently the provinces they don’t know they don’t know so if we’re if we’re looking at how to move forward here because we’ve we’ve talked a lot about the diagnosis of where the problems are what’s going on what’s not working um from everything that I’ve I I’ve heard from you it sounds like we need a lot of things number one we need National Security and uh and intelligence we need participation at every level of government we need to be equipping CIS with more capabilities or more tools
(45:11) or something to allow them to be able to act on evidence perhaps we need a dare I say it a another unit that is assigned to this that takes it seriously because Canadians are wondering if there’s 50 people um that ha have engaged in uh in collaboration with foreign countries in the past and in the present why have we heard of no arrest being made um that needs to be taken seriously and we need to be we need to be changing the culture of Canada and National Security to one that the US seems to embrace as we’ve seen some
(45:52) recent examples of one of sunlight transparency and we don’t hot behind the the excuse of National Security we put it out in the open with to dissuade people from engaging in it so um do you think that the only way that we’re going to get these things and more that we need because I’ve no doubt not exhausted the list is if Canadians demand of their politicians no matter the the party no matter the stripes that this become a priority in the Mandate of the next government and at all levels absolutely absolutely abolutely
(46:27) um and and you put the finger on one of the problem that we’ve seen in the past when do you recall in any political platform of any election in the last 50 years National Security was part of the platform never never uh Security National Security wasn’t part of uh any discussion or platform oh we talked about National Defense occasionally but uh we didn’t talk really about National Security and now we need to talk about National Security and not only we need to talk about National Security I need to see commitment from the people who
(47:06) runs to become Prime Minister that they’re very serious about it and they will put the the safety of this country ahead of their uh Personal Agenda uh and and this is lacking this is lacking and that’s you know what I hate to say to a certain extent but Trump has probably done better for the Canadian Unity than all the prime ministers in my living time you know it’s it’s AG it’s it’s amazing it’s amazing now finally the the the the sort of the province and the federals are talking about you know border security
(47:44) and stuff like that it it’s like you know we’ve been lacking so much in that field uh National Defense is 16,000 people short of the the number they should have minimum to to to to to staff their their their our uh our National Defense the RCMP is 20% below the minimum of police officer they need to have to be capable to fulfill all their their obligation we lack so many judges has not been named that every single day with the Jordan uh uh um the Jordan uh uh uh called we we we there is criminal cases thrown out because we don’t have judges
(48:32) to be capable to judge them and everything and it goes on and on like this so so it’s time that we understand that National Security is not an expense National Security is a Strategic investment in the prosperity of this country when you do not invest in the in the prosperity of this country well other guys will come and abuse you and use you and make it sure that it goes somewhere else give you an example Mr Harper sold a company called Nexon 15 M billion dollar to the Chinese a Chinese owned by the government of China you
(49:11) know uh we’re not even capable to buy a corner store in China the the reciprocity is not even there now uh I was talking a little bit earlier how the Chinese understand the notion of influence you and I are Canadians let’s try to call Miss Smith in in in uh in um Alberta you’re probably going to be put on hold if they call because they hired 3,000 people in Alberta they will have an a probably a meeting with her in the days that followed that’s the kind of influence that the Chinese has understood that is the kind of opponent
(49:51) that we understand and Mr hoer wasn’t there to defend us he wasn’t there to defend us as a matter of fact five members of his cabinet went and worked directly after they left the cabinet they went to work for a Chinese company including stock wi they with uh uh Public Safety and the former uh uh minister of uh uh foreign Affair for Canada so you know talk about the secret and the knowledge and the information that these guys left and went to work no colding cold period cooling period before they they they went to work for
(50:25) foreign entities we’re really really a bunch of pews when it comes to National Security well as we say in in it uh it’s the same thing with with cyber security it’s one of the usually one of the the larger budget items uh on um on the balance sheet of private organizations and public organizations and it’s the it’s the first thing to get cut because it’s the it’s the biggest uh it’s it’s the biggest budget item but when something goes wrong they turn around to to the cyber security guys and they say where were you why didn’t this work well
(51:00) if you if you don’t give me what I need uh I can’t protect you and that’s the problem right it’s it’s viewed as an expense it’s viewed as um as just a a bottomless pit of money but it’s in effect insurance if you take out insurance on National Security then you’re going to prevent disasters from happening and um as with most things preventing the issue is most often a lot easier and less expensive than cleaning up the issue and that’s what we’re seeing absolutely absolutely it’s a Strategic investment this is this is
(51:36) what it is about it is a Strategic investment that contribute the profitability of of of the country to the success of the country uh not doing so and other our allies have understood that for example uh in UK the MI6 the equivalent well almost the equivalent of cisus uh uh has host a a a a conference every year where they invite business people to come and lessen to the new threat that has been identified in everything when cus tried to do that the former uh uh uh Circ which was a security and intelligence Review Committee prevented
(52:13) cus to do so because by Design cus was designed to only inform the prime ministers and the minister of Public Safety that’s where we are in in the trouble that we are currently in because by Design back in 1984 pierot trau did exactly that to he wanted to have his private police and he took that away from the RCMP so if I could have a magic one and do what should be done properly in order to have a full National Security dismantle cus return everything to the RCMP and give the power to Dr RCMP because this is exactly what our
(52:54) allies are currently doing with for example the FBI because anyway when cissus find something that is criminally prosecuted or prosecutable that we should prosecute they has to give it to the RCMP the law says it give it to the RCMP and the RCMP will prosecute so we’re wasting time we’re wasting and and CES very often because they want to protect their uh uh uh mean of investigation and their their their sources and everything will not give the information to the to the RCMP so that’s obstruction to Justice uh and
(53:32) there’s several cases that where we have evidence of that Air India sharkawi uh uh ammed Rasam uh Jeffrey D to name only four you know where cus could have been prosecuted for obstruction of justice so we’ve got to reink the way we are looking and approaching National Security we need to have more more transparency we need to have more communication and that the hog report was mentioning it communication needs to increase cus needs to be capable if we keep cisus and we will probably uh uh talk must share information with more
(54:12) people the public included uh and and definitely being capable to prosecute when we can uh uh and and that is something that needs to be acquired at a very professional level which we don’t have currently in our justice system so Canadians assuming you’re still watching this is your mandate talk to your your candidate of choice no matter the color demand that National Security be a major item in this campaign when the whenever the election happens and let them know that this must be in the Mandate of the next government
(54:51) because this is something that we cannot continue to ignore um it is it’s affecting our way of life it’s affecting our culture we’ve seen we’ve seen the effects of it you you just have to look at the news and you look at social media and you can see it plain as day and I think you know Canadians keep saying well I need to be able to trust my government uh again I need to be able to trust the news again well it sounds like that starts with us as Canadians demanding that National Security be taken ser seriously because once that
(55:28) starts to be taken seriously and changes start to be made we’re going to start seeing more transparency and we’ll be able to hopefully eventually trust our government again so until that happens we will continue to watch and and hope thank you so much Michelle for joining us on on Northern perspective it’s been a privilege thank you for your service to this country uh and thank you for your service in the classroom educating the Next Generation and thank you very much to both of you for continuing uh and forming the population and giving a
(56:00) chance to engage into the discussion and I couldn’t say how much I support the message you just sent to to everybody please get involved please demand uh uh that this a this is on the agenda for the next election it’s really really really crucial and don’t wait to long because we’re going to we’re going to lose it and uh too much sacrifices through the decades I’ve done uh to have this beautiful uh country that we have and we need to protect it